“Schaeffer Sunday” Liberals at Ark Times can not stand up to Scott Klusendorf’s pro-life arguments (Part 6) Six piercing questions concerning morals that must be answered!!!!

Anti Abortion Pro-Life Training Video by Scott Klusendorf Part 1 of 4

Francis Schaeffer: “Whatever Happened to the Human Race” (Episode 1) ABORTION OF THE HUMAN RACE

Published on Oct 6, 2012 by 

This crucial series is narrated by the late Dr. Francis Schaeffer and former Surgeon General Dr. C. Everett Koop. Today, choices are being made that undermine human rights at their most basic level. Practices once considered unthinkable are now acceptable – abortion, infanticide and euthanasia. The destruction of human life, young and old, is being sanctioned on an ever-increasing scale by the medical profession, by the courts, by parents and by silent Christians. The five episodes in this series examine the sanctity of life as a social, moral and spiritual issue which the Christian must not ignore. The conclusion presents the Christian alternative as the only real solution to man’s problems.

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I have gone back and forth with Ark Times liberal bloggers on the issue of abortion, but I am going to try something new. I am going to respond with logical and rational reasons the pro-life view is true. All of this material is from a paper by Scott Klusendorf called FIVE BAD WAYS TO ARGUE ABOUT ABORTION .

On the Ark Times Blog on 5-10-13 the person using the username “DottHolliday” answered six questions I asked that I had gotten from Scott Klusendorf and here are the questions:

I have gone around and around with the liberal Ark Times bloggers on the issue of abortion. Now I am going to unleash the work of Scott Klusendorf on these bloggers. Here are a fun questions he is fond of asking:

1. Do you believe that morals (what’s right and what’s wrong) are real things or do we just make them up for ourselves?

2. Consider the following two statements: A) It is wrong to torture toddlers for fun. B) It is wrong to rape women for fun. How do they differ from the claim, “chocolate ice-cream is better than vanilla?”

3. Do you think that the terrorists who flew airplanes into the World Trade Center were evil or did they just have preferences different from our own?

4. People once disagreed on slavery: Some thought it was wrong while others thought it was perfectly fine. Was slavery wrong even though people disagreed?

5. People today disagree on the issue of abortion. What is the best way to get at the thuth and resolve the matter?

6. Pro-life advocates claim the elective abortion is wrong because it unjustly takes the life of a defenseless human being. How does this claim differ from saying that you like chocolate ice-cream rather than vanilla?
________________
I expect any pro-choice bloggers will be brave enough to answer these questions because they know they will look bad for believing they can make up their own morality to suit them and they have frequently equated morality choices with preferences in trivial matters such as food taste and they don’t want to ever call anything wrong and then actually back it up by pointing out on what basis they arrived at their decision.

Next DottHolliday answered back :

Saline,

1. Morals are real Saline, but people choose which ones the believe in and maintain. Your opponents believe it is immoral to sell assault weapons, extended magazines, and hourly plethoras of weapons without universal background checks. You don’t believe it is immoral to misinterpret and pervert the 2nd amendment to justify this, but you do. Which is moral, amoral, or immoral Saline? Don’t bother . . . We Know your view.

2. They differ Saline, in that we do not have laws against chocolate ice cream or vanilla ice cream, but we do against torture or rape . . . unless a Republican declares you a terrorist or doesn’t enforce or support those laws.

3. I think they were criminals and multiple murderers and who would have been better handled by our legal system, as the first World Trade Center bombers were, instead of as an excuse to invade two countries, one of which was proven to be uninvolved in the World Trade Center attacks, or weapons of mass destruction.

4. People still disagree on slavery and it is wrong, but there are those here that continue to support importing female immigrants into sexual slavery here and overseas as well as those who support working slavery abroad and in United States possessions. You should read and become familiar with what, Republican lobbyist, Abramoff was paid the big bucks and prosecuted for before you plagiarize and argument using it from one of your cons-guru’s.

5. The way that this country was set-up is a good way, Saline. Have a national referendum and accept what the majority vote, but the pro-life and Republicans would not allow that since polls show that they would lose. So, Saline, is pure democracy immoral, ammoral or moral. Evidentally, immoral since your buddies prefer to abuse and manipulate our system of representative democracy or republic to prevent change they don’t like.

6. Pro-life advocates are making assumptions about about when a fetus becomes a human being or viable, if you prefer, that their opponents disagree with. Both sides disagree because neither opinion has been, proven, yet, nor openly debated or voted on democratically in a referendum. I have tried both chocolate ice-cream and vanilla and I like both depending on the circumstances and toppings. That is how they are different.

Your plagiarized arguments are sophomoric, Saline. You’d probably do better if you had positions of your own and your own debating points to support them, but that requires you to think and have personal opinions rather than parroting what you’ve heard.
So spare us, Ark Times bloggers, Saline. We have read and thought about those positions, arguments and their like many times before.

___________________

 After DottHolliday answered back  I responded to his answers:

Thanks Dottholliday for your thoughtful answers. Let’s look again at the questions and your answers: YOUR ANSWERS ARE IN ALL CAPS.
1. Do you believe that morals (what’s right and what’s wrong) are real things or do we just make them up for ourselves? THEY ARE REAL, BUT PEOPLE CHOOSE THEM.

Francis Schaeffer rightly noted, “If there is no absolute moral standard, then one cannot say in a final sense that anything is right or wrong. By absolute we mean that which always applies, that which provides a final or ultimate standard. There must be an absolute if there are to be morals, and there must be an absolute if there are to be real values. If there is no absolute beyond man’s ideas, then there is no final appeal to judge between individuals and groups whose moral judgements conflict. We are merely left with conflicting opinions.”

2. Consider the following two statements: A) It is wrong to torture toddlers for fun. B) It is wrong to rape women for fun. How do they differ from the claim, “chocolate ice-cream is better than vanilla?” THEY DIFFER AND THAT IS WHY WE HAVE LAWS. 

3. Do you think that the terrorists who flew airplanes into the World Trade Center were evil or did they just have preferences different from our own? THEY WERE CRIMINALS AND MULTIPLE MURDERS.

4. People once disagreed on slavery: Some thought it was wrong while others thought it was perfectly fine. Was slavery wrong even though people disagreed? IT IS WRONG.
Recently I have enjoyed watching the series “The Abolitionists” on PBS and I noticed that the key leaders in this movement were Christians. I read this piece below by Al Mohler that mentions the abolition movement:

As a philosopher, Beckwith takes both words and arguments with deadly seriousness. Thus, he recognizes the inherent contradiction that marks the position held by millions of Americans. They argue that abortion is morally wrong, and recognize that it is the taking of innocent human life. At the same time, they argue that it would be wrong to impose this moral principle upon women and defend a legal right to abortion as the most appropriate public policy. Insightfully, Beckwith raises the issue of slavery, demonstrating conclusively that the application of this same argument to the question of slavery would never have led to abolition. Beckwith argues that Americans would react in anger to a politician who said, “I am personally opposed to owning a slave and torturing my spouse, but it would be wrong for me to try to force my personal beliefs on someone who felt it consistent with his deeply held beliefs to engage in such behaviors.” This politician would be considered “a moral monster,” Beckwith argues–yet this very pattern of argument is precisely what millions of Americans propose as their own highly moral position.

The pro-life movement had better get back to contending for the inherent humanity and dignity of the fetus, Beckwith argues, or the argument against abortion will be lost. Americans must be shown that “if fetuses are human persons, one cannot be pro-choice on abortion, just as one cannot be pro-choice on slavery and at the same time maintain that slaves are human persons.”



5. People today disagree on the issue of abortion. What is the best way to get at the thuth and resolve the matter?LET’S HAVE A NATIONAL REFERENDUM. 

6. Pro-life advocates claim the elective abortion is wrong because it unjustly takes the life of a defenseless human being. How does this claim differ from saying that you like chocolate ice-cream rather than vanilla? NEITHER OPINION (PRO-CHOICE OR PRO-LIFE) HAS BEEN PROVEN. 

So many times I have been accused of saying that religious reasons are why people turn to the pro-life point of view. That was not true with Dr. Bernard Nathanson. He was an atheist in 1979 when he became pro-life because of technology that advanced enough for him to see that the 12 week old unborn child does experience pain when an abortion is performed. 

Here is his story:
Dr. Bernard N. Nathanson, an obstetrician who oversaw the performance of about 75,000 abortions before becoming a leading pro-life advocate and a convert to the Catholic faith, died at his home in New York Feb. 21 after a prolonged battle with cancer. He was 84.

After performing his last abortion in 1979 and declaring himself to be pro-life, Nathanson produced the 1985 film The Silent Scream, which shows sonogram images of a child in the womb shrinking from an abortionist’s instruments, and the documentary film Eclipse of Reason, which displays and explains various abortion procedures in graphic detail. Both films had a significant impact on the abortion debate, solidified his credentials among pro-life advocates and earned him the scorn of his former pro-abortion friends and colleagues.

He also published a number of influential books, including Aborting America, written in 1979 with Richard Ostling, then a religion reporter for Time magazine, in which he exposed the deceptive and dishonest beginnings of the pro-abortion movement and undermined the argument that abortion is safe for women.

He often admitted that he and other abortion advocates in the 1960s lied about the number of women who died from illegal abortions at that time, inflating the figure from a few hundred to 10,000 to gain sympathy for their cause.

In his 1996 autobiography The Hand of God, he told the story of his journey from pro-abortion to pro-life, saying that viewing images from the new ultrasound technology in the 1970s convinced him of the humanity of the unborn baby. Outlining the enormous challenge of restoring a pro-life ethic, he wrote, “Abortion is now a monster so unimaginably gargantuan that even to think of stuffing it back into its cage … is ludicrous beyond words. Yet that is our charge — a herculean endeavor.”

He noted, regretfully, “I am one of those who helped usher in this barbaric age.”

His pro-life witness could not easily be dismissed as one-sided propaganda since Nathanson had enjoyed such a high standing among abortion supporters as a co-founder of the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws (now called NARAL ProChoice America), and as operator of what he called the nation’s busiest abortion business. The facility was opened in New York City after the state’s abortion laws were loosened in 1970 and abortion promoters realized that the high number of women seeking abortion could not all be admitted to a hospital for the procedure. A freestanding ambulatory clinic, in which abortion and recovery took about three hours, was an innovation devised by Nathanson and his colleagues.

Overall, Nathanson estimated, he presided over 60,000 abortions as director of the facility, instructed fellow practitioners in the performance of 15,000 other abortions, and personally performed about 5,000 abortions, including one on his own child conceived with a girlfriend in the 1960s.


Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/berna…

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