Taking on Ark Times Bloggers on various issues Part V “Abortion and the issue of rape” (includes the film TRUTH AND HISTORY and editorial cartoon)

I have gone back and forth and back and forth with many liberals on the Arkansas Times Blog on many issues such as abortion, human rights, welfare, poverty, gun control  and issues dealing with popular culture. Here is another exchange I had with them a while back. My username at the Ark Times Blog is Saline Republican.

On 3-5-13 on the Arkansas Times Blog the person with the username “Sound Policy” asserted:

SaleenSolution/Everette is a forced-birther, nothing more. He has a 9-month interest in a growing mass of cells. Period.

Pro-life, my ass!

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I replied:

Sound policy contends that pro-lifers are “Forced birthers!!” However, we did not tell anyone to get pregnant did we?

Steven J. Cole observed:
Before conception, there is not a new human life. But at the moment of conception, there is a new life, possessing 46 chromosomes, distinct from both the mother and the father. Genetically, the baby is not the mother’s body! By 21 days, the first heartbeats have begun. At 45 days, brain waves can be detected. By the ninth and tenth weeks, the thyroid and adrenal glands are functioning. By 12 or 13 weeks, he has fingernails, sucks his thumb, recoils from pain, and has his own unique fingerprints. The only things that developing life needs to become what we are, are time and nurture…

According to former Surgeon General, Dr. C. Everett Koop, the most common reason for abortion is convenience. Only three to five percent of all abortions performed are for reasons of rape, incest, the possibility of a deformed child, or severe threat to the life of the mother…In other countries, such as China and India, where male babies are favored over female babies, the abortion and infanticide of girls has led to a severe shortage of brides for young men.
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Sound policy, do you support gendercide? How about you Vanessa? It is happening a lot today. Why don’t you take up for those young ladies who are having their short lives snuffed out?

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On 3-5-13 on the Arkansas Times Blog the person with the username “the outlier” responded:

Saline, can you explain to me how you can make an exception for the life of the mother? Or exceptions for rape or incest as is found in Arkansas’ most recent legislation? Maybe God’s will is that she carry that fetus to term, even if it kills her. Maybe he’s got big plans for that fetus. Maybe God’s will is that a 12 year old carry her uncle’s or father’s baby to term, even if it ruins further an already damaged young girl.

You can’t have it both ways which all you forced birthers try to do. You can only, by your logic, be against all abortions for any reason.

I replied:

The outlier asked some very hard questions that deserve answers.

I would be in favor of making abortion illegal except for the case of rape and incest and the mother’s physical health being in danger because it would eliminate the vast majority of abortions in the USA. Philosophically I do not think two wrongs make a right, but when facing political realities that would be what I would be happy with.

I keep coming back to the distinct genetic code of the unborn child at conception. That proves the unborn baby’s personhood and medical science is showing us more evidence as time passes that the unborn baby does feel pain.

_________

On 3-5-13 on the Arkansas Times Blog the person with the username “the outlier” replied:

So, Saline, you are happy with some “murders” but not others as long as you get to choose the exceptions.

DNA is in every cell of your body.

What about all the little snowflake “babies” in cold storage, Saline? Will you, like Robby George, do away with in vitro fertilization? I have two little friends in California who would not be here except for IVF and they are inclined to disagree with you and Professor George.

Face it Saline, the whole situation is nuanced, ambiguous. It’s too nuanced and ambiguous to let a bunch of ignorant yahoos in our lege, or someone with all those letters after his name like George, or someone like you (an obsessed forced birther with a blog) make the rules.

Trust women. No one has an abortion blithely. You cite Koop or someone as saying that most abortions are done for convenience. I say to you that one man’s inconvenience can be a life altering and impossible situation for a woman.

Also, the SCOTUS cases you cited were decided 5-4. It is not so overwhelmingly clear to even the justices. If it is so obviously clear, then I would expect at least an 8-1 decision or 7-2.

I replied:

Vanessa says that until the Republicans try to improve the lives of those who already born then why should we be listened to.
1. We care about human life and we speak up for both males and females.
2. We don’t think supporting the welfare state is in the best long term interests of the poor.
3. Why not give the baby up for adoption if there are hard financial issues to overcome?

Frank Beckwith has noted, “…we must ask whether or not the unborn entity is fully human, for hardship does not justify homicide. In such cases, those in the religious and charitable communities should help lend financial and emotional support to the family. And it may be wise — if it is a case of extreme hardship — for the woman to put her baby up for adoption, so that she may give to others the gift of parenthood.”

Baylor University philosopher and bioethicist Baruch Brody comments:

In an age where we doubt the justice of capital punishment even for very dangerous criminals, killing a fetus who has not done any harm, to avoid a future problem it may pose, seems totally unjust. There are indeed many social problems that could be erased simply by destroying those persons who constitute or cause them, but that is a solution repugnant to the values of society itself. In short, then, if the fetus is a human being, the appeal to its being unwanted justifies no abortions.
___________
If you do think that by voting free healthcare and welfare for everyone then you will end up like Greece. The founding fathers knew this and warned against it. I do think that Milton Friedman makes a very convincing argument that if government stays out of the way then the free market will create the kind of wealth that it did in Europe and the USA for many decades.

________

Pcowen asked, “Saline, why would you allow for abortions in cases of rape, incest, or where the life of the mother is threatened?”

I answered:

Pcowan, I would allow abortion when the mother’s life is in danger, and I don’t know of anybody that disagrees with that. Now I would be delighted to support bills that would also allow a few other exceptions if that is what it took to get it passed.

The mental health of the mother can be used as an escape clause for almost anything and that is why I would oppose that language.

Rape and incest is sad but the child should not be aborted. In fact many times the mother decides to have the child in these cases now. Adoption would be a great option.

One day I hope we are looking back on the abortion days and talking about them as we now speak of the dark days of slavery. Jesse Jackson made this comparison in a 1977 speech that I read the other day.

_________________

This whole debate about the war on woman makes me think of this editorial cartoon about abortion that I wish many people would see. It shows both sides of the debate on this “war on women.”

In the film series “WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE HUMAN RACE?” the arguments are presented  against abortion (Episode 1),  infanticide (Episode 2),   euthenasia (Episode 3), and then there is a discussion of the Christian versus Humanist worldview concerning the issue of “the basis for human dignity” in Episode 4 and then in the last episode a close look at the truth claims of the Bible.

I truly believe that many of the problems we have today in the USA are due to the advancement of humanism in the last few decades in our society. Ronald Reagan appointed the evangelical Dr. C. Everett Koop to the position of Surgeon General in his administration. He partnered with Dr. Francis Schaeffer in making the video below. It is very valuable information for Christians to have.  Actually I have included a video below that includes comments from him on this subject.

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Francis Schaeffer: “Whatever Happened to the Human Race” (Episode 5) TRUTH AND HISTORY

Published on Oct 7, 2012 by

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Below Derek Brown notes, “As Schaeffer spoke across the United States at various colleges, he would not only impress listeners with his engagement with the wider culture and his ability to make Christianity appear intellectually tenable and relevant to the contemporary era, he also demonstrated a notable compassion for those whose works he would analyze and interpret.”

Though I am grateful for this time in Schaeffer’s life it was later after the release of his two film series that he reached a much larger audience.

Compassionate Engagement, Part 3: Life at L’Abri

By Derek Brown on January 10, 2012

Part 1     Part 2

Prior to the establishment of the L’Abri fellowship, Schaeffer trudged through a season of spiritual turmoil and profound questioning.  He had grown disillusioned with the spiritual reality of his own life and of those within the separatist movement and in other orthodox churches with which he was familiar (Louis Parkhurst, Francis Schaeffer: The Man and His Message, 69-70).  The result of the honest questioning his faith and of Christianity led Schaeffer, not to despair and unbridled skepticism, but to a deeper faith and experience of God’s reality as he saw the clear truth of God’s existence and his revelation in Scripture.  This newfound joy in Christ would lead to a fruitful–albeit unique–ministry over the next several years.

When the Schaeffer’s completed a one-year furlough back in the United States, they were, through various (and at times, extremely difficult) circumstances, able to purchase a home that would “always be open to young people” (Hankins, 55).  Shortly after their purchase of this home, the Schaeffer’s resigned from the Independent Board for Foreign Missions on June 4, 1955.  Schaeffer’s break from fundamentalism was now complete (Hankins, 56).

The Schaeffer’s new venture would formally begin in July 1955 as L’Abri (“the shelter”) Fellowship became the official name of the Schaeffer’s new ministry.  During the first years of L’Abri, a variety of visitors would come to the Chalet and find warm welcome.  Shortly after they opened L’Abri, the Schaeffer’s were able to purchase and use other nearby buildings.  These buildings would become places of study and accommodations for visitors.  The main feature of L’Abri, however, was the discussions.

Schaeffer would entertain and encourage discussions of all kinds with visitors.  These conversations typically flowed out of questions posed by the guests as they inquired into the nature and reality of Christianity or boldly asserted their unbelief.  The talks, however, were, for Schaeffer’s part, never mere academic banter; they were, as Hankins observes, “about truth and how it affected real lives” (Hankins, 61).  The Schaeffer’s were intentional in coupling sincere intellectual engagement with an environment of warmth and love.  They were convinced of that the “final apologetic” for the truth of Christianity was the demonstration of the love that Christians had for one another and for others.  Regarding the importance of this visible testimony to the reality of Christianity, Schaffer would later write in his book, The God Who is There,

The final apologetic, along with the rational, logical defense and presentation, is what the world sees in the individual Christian and in our corporate relationships together…What we are called to do…is to exhibit substantial healing, individual and then corporate, so that people may observe it (Schaeffer, The Francis Schaeffer Trilogy, 165).

This important facet of Christianity and the defense of its truth had been absent in much of the fundamentalism to which Francis Schaeffer had been exposed; he and Edith were resolute in their effort to make sure L’Abri would be different in this regard (Hankins, 72).

As L’Abri’s popularity grew, Schaeffer would have the opportunity to speak at university campuses throughout Europe.  Yet, as Schaeffer became more convinced of the truth he was purveying in the work among the questioning visitors and among the universities, he also became frustrated that only a handful of people—those who visited L’Abri and those in the European universities—would hear these important messages.  Schaeffer’s effort to speak to a larger audience would eventually lead to lecture circuits to colleges in the United States (Hankins, 74-75).

As Schaeffer spoke across the United States at various colleges, he would not only impress listeners with his engagement with the wider culture and his ability to make Christianity appear intellectually tenable and relevant to the contemporary era, he also demonstrated a notable compassion for those whose works he would analyze and interpret.  This latter characteristic of Schaeffer’s approach to intellectual engagement was illustrated vividly when, after reading a nonsensical poem by an unbelieving author, rebuked the laughing crowd, saying,

I get so tired of Bible believing Christians who laugh at these people—who laugh at them when they look at their tortured paintings.  Do you laugh at a man at the door of hell?  When evangelicals learn to stop their laughing and take such men and their struggles seriously then [evangelicals] can again begin to speak to our generation (Hankins, 77).

Here again we find a man not only interested in developing an apologetic to demonstrate the reasonableness of Christianity, but also—and just as importantly—a love that could weep over those with whom he would engage with intellectual argument and rigor.

Next: A Few Significant Works

Related posts:

By Everette Hatcher III, on May 16, 2013 at 6:09 am, under Francis Schaeffer, Prolife. No Comments
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