DISCUSSION

Hello, I am Linda Chavez and welcome to Free to Choose. Joining Dr. Friedman for a discussion of the failure of socialism are Gary Becker from the University of Chicago and Samuel Bowles of the University of Massachusetts. Dr. Bowles, I think we can all agree that socialism has failed Eastern Europe. Dr. Friedman believes that the path out of that is the free market and I think he thinks there are lessons for the United States. What do you think?

Bowles: The homeless people are homeless because they are poor and they are out of work. They are not homeless because of rent control.

Friedman: I beg your pardon. All of them aren’t. Of course there are some like that, but the existence of rent control has certainly increased the number of homeless.

Becker: Many people are homeless because they are mentally ill. But the homeless is a tiny fraction. Housing policy in the United States should not be oriented around the homeless because that is a tiny part of the problem in any major city, and certainly outside of major cities. If you look at the bulk of housing in the United States, I see no evidence that it cannot be adequately provided by the private sector.

Bowles: Let’s talk about incentives because I know both of you like to talk about incentives a lot. I think incentives are terribly important. Milton says in the show, and I agree with him, that we have to choose between taking orders from the top down, or incentives at the bottom. Now Milton’s idea of how do you get the incentives down at the bottom is essentially a view of an economy in which individuals, through their ownership of property, can own the results of their hard work and their innovation. It is a great idea. It doesn’t exist anywhere and it can’t exist. When I read your stuff Milton and when I watch you on TV, I think, you know, Milton has this idea of, Charlie Brown and Linus are going to have a lemonade stand and Lucy is going to have another lemonade stand and that is your idea of capitalism. But that is a myth. That is not what capitalism is. We don’t have thousands and millions of little firms competing on a level playing field. We have giant industrial corporations that use their power to their own advantage and to the disadvantage of others. That is what you have to be able to deal with you if you want to be relevant to the modern world. That is what the countries that I talked about, Sweden, Korea, Norway, Japan, are very good at doing __ dealing with the problem of economic power so that the power of those institutions can be used by and large for public good. If you ignore them with this lemonade stand capitalism myth, you are simply giving those powerful spenders of wealth and affluence free rein.

Friedman: Gary, it is a strange thing that not a single one of the countries that you have described has a standard of living as high as that of the United States with respect to the bulk of its population.

Bowles: Yes and the United States got its standard of living through precisely the policies that you have opposed such as protecting our industrial base from . . . . . .

Becker: I would be very happy to go back to the 19th century U.S. policy. It was a tiny part. The government, sure they did some things, but as a tiny part of the economy and let’s go back to a resource that went through the government at that time what was it? Ten percent of the maximum. The largest employer of the government was the postal system. That is the main thing the government was doing. Some tariff policies probably hurt us and a few other activities. Let me come back to the other issue raised then. There are millions and millions of companies in the United States. It is true that in some sectors these are very large companies like in manufacturing. But what I think has happened, particularly in the modern world, is these large companies are now having to compete with large countries from elsewhere. It is not capitalism. It is the political sector that is limiting that competition, partly at the behest of these companies, but also at the behest of the employees of these companies to limit the competition from abroad, but most industries, it would be hard put for you to argue now that even the large companies aren’t facing significant competition in the United States markets, not only from domestic companies, but from large companies based abroad.

Bowles: Oh, I agree with that completely. But what I am concerned about is this. If you work at General Motors or IBM and you are a secretary or you are a production worker, what you are getting there is you are getting orders from the top down. You don’t own your work. You don’t own the results of your work. When you talk about incentives from the bottom, if you want to get incentives from the bottom, you have to get the people who work at the bottom to own the results of their work and to have a say in how their work is going to be used. You can do that if you . . . like employee ownership and employee control. That is what made Wierton Steel from almost bankruptcy to one of the most successful steel companies in the United States __ employee ownership and control. The same with Columbia Aluminum, one of the most efficient aluminum companies in the United States. It went from shutdown to being a very successful company through employee ownership and employee control over their production processes. That is what I call putting incentives at the bottom where they belong, but you never advocate that.

Becker: I am not against employee ownership, but you have to permit employee ownership to compete on a level playing field against other forms. We permitted that in the United States, up until 1975, when you had trivial employee ownership in the United States. That to me suggests that workers didn’t want it.

Chavez: Dr. Friedman, who owns companies now? Are these in the hands of a small number of people or is it stockholders?

Friedman: No, it is the stockholders who own it and a very large fraction of that is owned in pension plans which are for the benefit of the employees. But of course, Gary is right, what produced the spate of employee ownership was government subsidy through ESOP’s since 1975.

Friedman: I think that is disgraceful.

Becker: That is the only reason you have gotten the growth of employee ownership in the United States. We have 5,000 or 6,000 employee owned companies now in the United States, and you take away these subsidies and they think that would go down to 1,000 or so, and let them be there, that is fine. Let the market determine which form is most desired and which form is most efficient.

Chavez: Gentlemen, obviously we have not exhausted this subject, but we are out of time. Thank you for watching Free to Choose. Next week we will be discussing the failure of our schools. We send our kids to school hoping that they will receive something that will benefit them in the future for when they go out here and compete in the job market. Unfortunately, none of that is taking place out of Hyde Park.

DISCUSSION

Hello, I am Linda Chavez and welcome to Free to Choose. Joining Dr. Friedman for a discussion of the failure of socialism are Gary Becker from the University of Chicago and Samuel Bowles of the University of Massachusetts. Dr. Bowles, I think we can all agree that socialism has failed Eastern Europe. Dr. Friedman believes that the path out of that is the free market and I think he thinks there are lessons for the United States.

Chavez: I would like to bring this discussion back to the United States for a moment. What about socialism in the United States. There has been one area where we have tried to redistribute wealth. We have done that through our welfare policies and social security. Has that worked?

Friedman: For some people, it benefited, but taken as a whole, I think it has been a failure.

Becker: I agree with that. I think the big problem in the United States has been, of course, some of the welfare programs have been successful. But by trying to do too many things, the government is no longer doing the things that it should be doing. We all agree there are many things government should be doing. I agree with Milton __ he is a strong man to be say this is an issue between no government and 100% government. The question is what are the tasks that government should be doing. I believe the tasks are, of course, defense against outside aggression, internal protection, some infrastructure, protection of the people can’t make it. In every one of these areas, we are not doing very well. I think we are not doing well mainly because we are trying to do a lot of things we shouldn’t be doing. They can’t do all of them.

Chavez: I couldn’t help but think, Dr. Bowles, as I watched that film that the public housing area that we saw in Eastern Europe and the problems that we have here in the United States. Aren’t there some lessons to be learned?

Bowles: There is absolutely no reason why housing shouldn’t be privately owned. That does not mean that the government has no role in housing. It seems to me that housing is precisely something that ought to be a matter of private property. But we also know, from the experience of this country, that the market itself doesn’t provide housing that the rest of the public thinks is adequate for the vast majority of poor people in this country. Now that doesn’t mean it has to be done by government building the houses, but it certainly does mean that something has to be done or we are going to have the kind of homeless crisis that we have in this country and they are getting one in Eastern Europe too.

Becker: The homeless crisis is a tiny fraction of the population of the United States. Let’s not make that a major part of the housing problem in the United States. I am not at all convinced that there is any evidence suggesting that the private system cannot provide adequate housing. I think there is a good case to be made that there are poor people in this country and the government obviously has to help them out. We all agree on that. But should they be doing it by building housing or by giving them income and permitting them to spend as they see fit. I see no evidence from the U.S. or any other country who were better off when then government takes a major role in housing or any of these other particular activities that allocate resources.

Friedman: What role has been played in the difficulty of getting housing by government interventions? By rent control? By excessive building code regulations, many of which are designed to protect the interests of special groups. Government played a very large role.