From Oct. 28, 1980, here is part 3 of the Carter-Reagan Presidential Debate, which occurred in Cleveland, as taped from WJKW-TV, CBS. Amazing how things have changed…and yet stayed the same…in almost 30 years!!!
NicaraguaMR. KONDRACKE: You’ve been quoted as saying that you might quarantine Nicaragua. I’d like to know what that means. Would you stop Soviet ships, as President Kennedy did in 1962? And wouldn’t that be more dangerous than President Reagan’s covert war?MR. MONDALE: What I’m referring to there is the mutual self-defense provisions that exist in the Inter-American treaty, the so-called Rio Pact, that permits the nations, our friends in that region, to combine to take steps — diplomatic and otherwise — to prevent Nicaragua, when she acts irresponsibly in asserting power in other parts outside of her border, to take those steps, whatever they might be, to stop it.The Nicaraguans must know that it is the policy of our government that that leadership must stay behind the boundaries of their nation, not interfere in other nations. And by working with all of the nations in the region — unlike the policies of this administration and unlike the President said, they have not supported negotiations in that region — we will be much stronger, because we’ll have the moral authority that goes with those efforts.
LebanonMR. KONDRACKE: President Reagan, you introduced U.S. forces into Lebanon as neutral peacekeepers, but then you made them combatants on the side of the Lebanese Government. Eventually you were forced to withdraw them under fire, and now Syria, a Soviet ally, is dominant in the country. Doesn’t Lebanon represent a major failure on the part of your administration and raise serious questions about your capacity as a foreign policy strategist and as Commander in Chief?THE PRESIDENT: No, Morton, I don’t agree to all of those things. First of all, when we and our allies — the Italians, the French, and the United Kingdom — went into Lebanon, we went in there at the request of what was left of the Lebanese Government to be a stabilizing force while they tried to establish a government.But the first — pardon me — the first time we went in, we went in at their request because the war was going on right in Beirut between Israel and the PLO terrorists. Israel could not be blamed for that. Those terrorists had been violating their northern border consistently, and Israel chased them all the way to there.Then we went in with the multinational force to help remove, and did remove, more than 13,000 of those terrorists from Lebanon. We departed. And then the Government of Lebanon asked us back in as a stabilizing force while they established a government and sought to get the foreign forces all the way out of Lebanon and that they could then take care of their own borders.And we were succeeding. We were there for the better part of a year. Our position happened to be at the airport. Oh, there were occasional snipings and sometimes some artillery fire, but we did not engage in conflict that was out of line with our mission. I will never send troops anywhere on a mission of that kind without telling them that if somebody shoots at them, they can darn well shoot back. And this is what we did. We never initiated any kind of action; we defended ourselves there.
But we were succeeding to the point that the Lebanese Government had been organized — if you will remember, there were the meetings in Geneva in which they began to meet with the hostile factional forces and try to put together some kind of a peace plan. We were succeeding, and that was why the terrorist acts began. There are forces there — and that includes Syria, in my mind — who don’t want us to succeed, who don’t want that kind of a peace with a dominant Lebanon, dominant over its own territory. And so, the terrorist acts began and led to the one great tragedy when they were killed in that suicide bombing of the building. Then the multilateral force withdrew for only one reason: We withdrew because we were no longer able to carry out the mission for which we had been sent in. But we went in in the interest of peace and to keep Israel and Syria from getting into the sixth war between them. And I have no apologies for our going on a peace mission.
MR. KONDRACKE: Mr. President, 4 years ago you criticized President Carter for ignoring ample warnings that our diplomats in Iran might be taken hostage. Haven’t you done exactly the same thing in Lebanon, not once, but three times, with 300 Americans, not hostages, but dead? And you vowed swift retaliation against terrorists, but doesn’t our lack of response suggest that you’re just bluffing?
THE PRESIDENT: Morton, no. I think there’s a great difference between the Government of Iran threatening our diplomatic personnel, and there is a government that you can see and can put your hand on. In the terrorist situation, there are terrorist factions all over. In a recent 30-day period, 37 terrorist acts in 20 countries have been committed. The most recent has been the one in Brighton. In dealing with terrorists, yes, we want to retaliate, but only if we can put our finger on the people responsible and not endanger the lives of innocent civilians there in the various communities and in the city of Beirut where these terrorists are operating.
I have just signed legislation to add to our ability to deal, along with our allies, with this terrorist problem. And it’s going to take all the nations together, just as when we banded together we pretty much resolved the whole problem of skyjackings sometime ago.
Well, the red light went on. I could have gone on forever.
MR. NEWMAN: Mr. Mondale, your rebuttal?
MR. MONDALE: Groucho Marx said, “Who do you believe? — me, or your own eyes?” And what we have in Lebanon is something that the American people have seen. The Joint Chiefs urged the President not to put our troops in that barracks because they were indefensible. They went to him 5 days before they were killed and said, “Please, take them out of there.” The Secretary of State admitted that this morning. He did not do so. The report following the explosion of the barracks disclosed that we had not taken any of the steps that we should have taken. That was the second time.
Then the Embassy was blown up a few weeks ago, and once again none of the steps that should have been taken were taken. And we were warned 5 days before that explosives were on their way, and they weren’t taken. The terrorists have won each time. The President told the terrorists he was going to retaliate. He didn’t. They called their bluff. And the bottom line is that the United States left in humiliation, and our enemies are stronger.
MR. NEWMAN: Mr. President, your rebuttal?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. First of all, Mr. Mondale should know that the President of the United States did not order the marines into that barracks. That was a command decision made by the commanders on the spot and based with what they thought was best for the men there. That is one.
On the other things that you’ve just said about the terrorists, I’m tempted to ask you what you would do. These are unidentified people, and after the bomb goes off, they’re blown to bits because they are suicidal individuals who think they’re going to go to paradise if they perpetrate such an act and lose their life in doing it. We are going to, as I say, we’re busy trying to find the centers where these operations stem from, and retaliation will be taken. But we’re not going to simply kill some people to say, “Oh, look, we got even.” We want to know when we retaliate that we’re retaliating with those who are responsible for the terrorist acts. And terrorist acts are such that our own United States Capitol in Washington has been bombed twice.
MR. NEWMAN: Mr. Trewhitt, your question to President Reagan?
The President’s Age
Mr. Trewhitt. Mr. President, I want to raise an issue that I think has been lurking out there for 2 or 3 weeks and cast it specifically in national security terms. You already are the oldest President in history. And some of your staff say you were tired after your most recent encounter with Mr. Mondale. I recall yet that President Kennedy had to go for days on end with very little sleep during the Cuban missile crisis. Is there any doubt in your mind that you would be able to function in such circumstances?
THE PRESIDENT: Not at all, Mr. Trewhitt, and I want you to know that also I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit, for political purposes, my opponent’s youth and inexperience. [Laughter and applause] If I still have time, I might add, Mr. Trewhitt, I might add that it was Seneca or it was Cicero, I don’t know which, that said, “If it was not for the elders correcting the mistakes of the young, there would be no state.”
It has been 150 years since the beginning of the Civil War that started in April of 1861 at Ft Sumter.
Old Soldier’s of the Civil War
(Grant Co., WI, Circa 1890’s)
Probably members of the Sam Montieth Post – G.A.R.
and/or of the Wisconsin 7th Volunteer Infantry – The Iron Brigade
Photo includes:
John and Sophronia (McGhan) McLimans
(couple just to the left of the doors)
Thomas and Mary Ann (Thomas) Walker
(Thomas is 2nd to right on the first row – Mary Ann is the last woman on the right in the back row)
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Excerpts from Mary Lee Orsini transcript
The following is a series of excerpts from a July 17 interview between Mary Lee Orsini and Sgt. Jim Dixon and Major Jackie Goodson of the Pulaski County sheriff’s office. The transcript was edited only for basic spelling.
Sergeant Dixon: Could we start with uh, when you got up the morning, or the date of the occurrence.
Mary Lee Orsini: Okay, okay. Well the crime was actually committed uh a little bit after one o’clock in the morning on March the twelfth. Uh I had uh, stolen my husband’s gun some weeks before. Uh I had secreted it in the house and uh um that that morning uh, I got up and uh, I went into the bedroom. My daughter had been ill and I had set with my daughter a couple of nights before, which was legitimate. I mean it was a lot made out of that, but it was legitimate. She had a swimmer’s ear, which she frequently had problems with; and I was sleeping with her. And uh I got up and I, and I had taken the gun and I had shot my husband, and I closed the door, locked the door and closed the door and uh I went through a ruse that morning to prevent my daughter from going into the room. Uh I took her to school. I then uh, took the gun and the robe that I had on, and the that shoes I had on, the rubber gloves that I had on. Everything and I took and destroyed those. I don’t know the name of the place, I could probably tell you where they were thrown; probably not there anymore. I don’t know about the gun. But I, and I proceeded to go through uh the ruse of calling my husband at work uh, then uh his partner told me how to get into the door, which I really didn’t know how to get into the door. Uh I knew I had seen him use something to get into the door. I later found out they were allen wrenches but I used a a skewer from the bar-b-que and I went in the door and uh, then I called the police and feigned a hysterical uh call to the North Little Rock Police Department. Really the, the operator switched me but I guess because of the telephone number to the Sherwood and I guess somehow got switched over. I think I was, if I remember correctly I was trying to get a hold of the ambulance. And when I told her my husband had blood all over him then she called the operator and was switching things around and it got real confusing. And uh she called the North Little Rock Police Department, someone did; I think the operator. And they came out and it ensued from that. There was a lot of controversy about a car being out front of my housed that night. And a girl seen across the street. And when that was, when that came up that was news to me. There was no car involved, there was no else involved. It was solely on my own volition.
. . .
Dixon: And you took that and the, and the revolver and you discarded those, those items? Did you do this before taking your daughter to school or?
Orsini: No, I never left the house. I went down to the uh, to the garage. I wrapped everything up. The gun up in the gown, the gown and robe and stuff put it back in a plastic bag back behind my seat. Uh and went back up the bed room where my daughter was and uh, uh, when I got her up, I took, dropped her off at the school and then, I uh, she went to Central which I’m not sure if you’re familiar and then I…
Dixon: Central High in Little Rock.
Orsini: No, no, no the old Central, seventh grade school. That’s where she went. You know what I’m talking about, right? I don’t know what street it’s are over there.
Major Goodson: Central Junior High.
Orsini: Yeah, they were all in the seventh grade. All the seventh grade kids go there. I dropped her off there and gave her a doctors permit to go back to school. And uh, I discarded the uh, discarded the gun and the stuff. After that I left.
Dixon: Can you recall where you discarded these items?
Orsini: I don’t know the name of the street, but I can tell you, with you probably being familiar with North Little Rock, I can tell you the directions. I’m not real good with streets and stuff but uh I went the old back way, I don’t remember that highway uh I think it’s called the Old Jacksonville Highway. You’re back behind McAlmont; that way. Okay. You know how Wildwood and Sherwood; you come back up through to the Old Round Top Filling Station there? Okay you come up that road there, well there’s like swamps on both sides of that road okay…
Dixon: Trammel Road.
Orsini: Trammel Road. Okay, as I’m facing Sherwood there was a culvert or little bridge like thing, I threw the gun and the, and the screwdriver thing I used to break into the back door, I threw it over this way, on the, into that swamp. The gown and stuff I threw back up by a dump that I saw a bunch of stuff discarded.
. . .
Goodson: So what I need you to do is try to go through this. I know you don’t want to get into the reason for it, but I think we need to go into some motive about why you would do this to your husband. If we don’t get into that then so it, it doesn’t all fit. You know what I’m saying.
Orsini: And I know what you’re saying, and I’m not really wanting to cover up. But I just really think that for everybody’s sake that I don’t need to go into a motive. I’m responsible. And I take full responsibility for it.
Goodson: Well what concerns me is that you stole your husband’s gun two weeks prior. Does that mean that you were planning this at least two weeks prior too?
Orsini: Yeah I was, you know uh, course you’ve never done anything like this, and I hadn’t either prior to that point. And uh you know, you talk yourself into it, you talk yourself out of it, you talk yourself into it, you talk yourself out of it. And in essence that’s what I was doing.
Goodson: Can you give me some idea as to why you would do that to your husband and the father of your daughter.
Orsini: He wasn’t, he was my daughter’s stepfather;
Goodson: Oh okay I’m sorry.
Orsini: But none the less Ron did not deserve this. You know uh, I know it sounds contradictory but uh there was just a set of circumstances that lead up to it and uh they’re not really important today.
Goodson: Well uh, it is in order to making sense of when someone says I-I killed someone. You know the first question that you’re going to ask if someone told you that is; why? Is it financial, is it-is it…
Orsini: Yeah in-in part it was financial-in part it was financial. We had uh…
Goodson: Is it abuse? Is it uh…
Orsini: No he’s not abusive, no. He had uh, nor is he sexual, nor did he do anything to my daughter. No, no, no.
Goodson: That’s what I’m saying if you don’t-if you don’t come up with why, then you got this-all this out here that can come into something.
Orsini: Okay, okay. I understand. So you’re saying an omission is as bad as …okay.
Goodson: Cause you’re leaving it out there for anybody to…
Orsini: Okay can I make brief toward this instead of just really putting it out there, cause all the details involved a lot of innocent people that really didn’t do anything wrong it’s involving them. You know I really just don’t want to get into a whole lot of. You know, you know that um, you know that there’s no way I can do this quietly. I can’t go crawl under a table and do this.
Goodson: I understand.
Orsini: You know it’s right, it’s just, and they’re still people that’s suffering behind this.
Goodson: Well I’m telling you I can appreciate your strength over this. Uh but again I think you do an injustice too…
Orsini: Primarily it was financial. We had gotten ourselves into a situation, which uh was primarily was my fault for uh, uh my husband had wanted to move back when were in our original house back when we were uh married and uh, if y’all remember when Carter was in office it was projected interest rates were going sky high and by the end of 1980 I remember it was 23 percent. My husband was in the contracting business, and air conditioning business so he uh, he knew kind of what was going to happen and he said you know we need to move. The house we used to live in doubled itself. But uh, you know and we got our loan quick. The problem that we had was that-that uh, all the other transactions that got involved with estate agent that wasn’t all on the up and up, and twisted some things around and uh which was my fault for letting her do that. And I-and I did it behind my husband’s back. To try and go head and take care of the situation to get into the house; which we both were happy with getting into the house. Uh, you know to make a long story short uh, Ron was killed so he wouldn’t catch me, and all those lies I had told him. You know I-I know that sounds uh really crazy, but you can, uh, but you care enough for somebody that you don’t want them to know really that there’s um, that um you weren’t honest with them.
Goodson: Was there ever any threats…
Orsini: No.
Goodson: Of harm or anything, something to…
Orsini: No, no, I look back now that wisdom comes after understanding. Well when you get wisdom and you get understanding you know uh-uh the wisest thing I would’ve been-would have been was sit down with him and work it out. Because at that time my income was increasing and uh there could have been a solution. But uh uh evidently there were areas I wasn’t mature in, and uh I was scared. And uh I had lied to him enough about the situations, that uh you know most people kill over affairs. Both of us were-neither one of us was having affairs. As you know I think that’s probably why the case was always so crazy. Because there was no clear cut motive for anybody to, I mean yes Sergeant Farley brought out the thing; even he didn’t get an accurate picture of what was uh…
Goodson: He brought out what?
Orsini: You know the financial situation, cause he traced it back and could see that you know-in all essence within a week we would have collapsed you know financially in the present state. That’s what my thinking was then, and uh had I been wise; which I was not um I could sit down with my husband, there could been some renegotiating but I wasn’t wise I was very stupid.
Goodson: So you’re saying that, that’s the reason that this all occurred on that night?
Orsini: Yeah.
Goodson: The night that you walked in there with the gun in your hand, was due to the fact; I don’t want to put word in your mouth but I’m trying to understand…
Orsini: I understand what you’re saying.
Goodson: But you didn’t want to be confronted with the facts of the lies that you had told him that…
Orsini: Exactly.
. . .
President Bill Clinton, left, and former Presidents George Bush, Reagan, Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford stand with their wives during funeral services for former President Richard Nixon Wednesday, April 27, 1994, in Yorba Linda, Calif. (AP Photo/Dennis Cook)
The Daily Hatch 