MR. NEWMAN: Ms. Geyer, your question to Mr. Mondale.
Illegal Immigration

MS. GEYER: Mr. Mondale, many analysts are now saying that actually our number one foreign policy problem today is one that remains almost totally unrecognized: massive illegal immigration from economically collapsing countries. They are saying that it is the only real territorial threat to the American nation-state. You, yourself, said in the 1970’s that we had a “hemorrhage on our borders.” Yet today you have backed off any immigration reform, such as the balanced and highly crafted Simpson-Mazzoli bill. Why? What would you do instead today, if anything?

MR. MONDALE: This is a very serious problem in our country, and it has to be dealt with. I object to that part of the Simpson-Mazzoli bill which I think is very unfair and would prove to be so. That is the part that requires employers to determine the citizenship of an employee before they’re hired. I’m convinced that the result of this would be that people who are Hispanic, people who have different languages or speak with an accent, would find it difficult to be employed. I think that’s wrong. We’ve never had citizenship tests in our country before, and I don’t think we should have a citizenship card today. That is counterproductive.

I do support the other aspects of the Simpson-Mazzoli bill that strengthen enforcement at the border, strengthen other ways of dealing with undocumented workers in this difficult area and dealing with the problem of settling people who have lived here for many, many years and do not have an established status.

I have further strongly recommended that this administration do something it has not done, and that is to strengthen enforcement at the border, strengthen the officials in this government that deal with undocumented workers, and to do so in a way that’s responsible and within the Constitution of the United States. We need an answer to this problem, but it must be an American answer that is consistent with justice and due process.

Everyone in this room, practically, here tonight, is an immigrant. We came here loving this nation, serving it, and it has served all of our most bountiful dreams. And one of those dreams is justice. And we need a measure — and I will support a measure — that brings about those objectives but avoids that one aspect that I think is very serious.

The second part is to maintain and improve relations with our friends to the south. We cannot solve this problem all on our own. And that’s why the failure of this administration to deal in an effective and a good-faith way with Mexico, with Costa Rica, with the other nations in trying to find a peaceful settlement to the dispute in Central America has undermined our capacity to effectively deal diplomatically in this area as well.

MS. GEYER: Sir, people as well-balanced and just as Father Theodore Hesburgh at Notre Dame, who headed the select commission on immigration, have pointed out repeatedly that there will be no immigration reform without employer sanctions, because it would be an unbalanced bill, and there would be simply no way to enforce it. However, putting that aside for the moment, your critics have also said repeatedly that you have not gone along with the bill or with any immigration reform because of the Hispanic groups — or Hispanic leadership groups — who actually do not represent what the Hispanic-Americans want, because polls show that they overwhelmingly want some kind of immigration reform. Can you say, or how can you justify your position on this? And how do you respond to the criticism that this is another, or that this is an example of your flip-flopping and giving in to special interest groups at the expense of the American nation?

MR. MONDALE: I think you’re right that the polls show that the majority of Hispanics want that bill, so I’m not doing it for political reasons. I’m doing it because all my life I’ve fought for a system of justice in this country, a system in which every American has a chance to achieve the fullness in life without discrimination. This bill imposes upon employers the responsibility of determining whether somebody who applies for a job is an American or not. And just inevitably, they’re going to be reluctant to hire Hispanics or people with a different accent.

If I were dealing with politics here, the polls show the American people want this. I am for reform in this area, for tough enforcement at the border, and for many other aspects of the Simpson-Mazzoli bill, but all my life I’ve fought for a fair nation. And despite the politics of it, I stand where I stand, and I think I’m right, and before this fight is over we’re going to come up with a better bill, a more effective bill that does not undermine the liberties of our people.

MS. GEYER: Mr. President, you, too, have said that our borders are out of control. Yet this fall you allowed the Simpson-Mazzoli bill — which would at least have minimally protected our borders and the rights of citizenship — because of a relatively unimportant issue of reimbursement to the States for legalized aliens. Given that, may I ask what priority can we expect you to give this forgotten national security element? How sincere are you in your efforts to control, in effect, the nation-state that is the United States?

THE PRESIDENT: Georgie Anne, we, believe me, supported the Simpson-Mazzoli bill strongly — and the bill that came out of the Senate. However, there were things added in in the House side that we felt made it less of a good bill; as a matter of fact, made it a bad bill. And in conference — we stayed with them in conference all the way to where even Senator Simpson did not want the bill in the manner in which it would come out of the conference committee. There were a number of things in there that weakened that bill. I can’t go into detail about them here.

But it is true our borders are out of control. It is also true that this has been a situation on our borders back through a number of administrations. And I supported this bill. I believe in the idea of amnesty for those who have put down roots and who have lived here even though sometime back they may have entered illegally. With regard to the employer sanctions, we must have that not only to ensure that we can identify the illegal aliens, but also, while some keep protesting about what it would do to employers, there is another employer that we shouldn’t be so concerned about, and these are employers down through the years who have encouraged the illegal entry into this country because they then hire these individuals and hire them at starvation wages and with none of the benefits that we think are normal and natural for workers in our country, and the individuals can’t complain because of their illegal status. We don’t think that those people should be allowed to continue operating free.

And this was why the provisions that we had in with regard to sanctions, and so forth — and I’m going to do everything I can, and all of us in the administration are, to join in again when Congress is back at it to get an immigration bill that will give us, once again, control of our borders.

And with regard to friendship below the border and with the countries down there, yes, no administration that I know has established the relationship that we have with our Latin friends. But as long as they have an economy that leaves so many people in dire poverty and unemployment, they are going to seek that employment across our borders. And we work with those other countries.

MS. GEYER: Mr. President, the experts also say that the situation today is terribly different quantitatively — qualitatively different from what it has been in the past because of the gigantic population growth. For instance, Mexico’s population will go from about 60 million today to 120 million at the turn of the century. Many of these people will be coming into the United States not as citizens, but as illegal workers. You have repeatedly said recently that you believe that Armageddon, the destruction of the world, may be imminent in our times. Do you ever feel that we are in for an Armageddon or a situation, a time of anarchy, regarding the population explosion in the world?

THE PRESIDENT: No. As a matter of fact, the population explosion, if you look at the actual figures, has been vastly exaggerated — over exaggerated. As a matter of fact, there are some pretty scientific and solid figures about how much space there still is in the world and how many more people we can have. It’s almost like going back to the Malthusian theory, when even then they were saying that everyone would starve with the limited population they had then. But the problem of population growth is one, here, with regard to our immigration. And we have been the safety valve, whether we wanted to or not, with the illegal entry here, in Mexico, where their population is increasing and they don’t have an economy that can absorb them and provide the jobs. And this is what we’re trying to work out, not only to protect our own borders but to have some kind of fairness and recognition of that problem.

MR. NEWMAN: Mr. Mondale, your rebuttal?

MR. MONDALE: One of the biggest problems today is that the countries to our south are so desperately poor that these people who will almost lose their lives if they don’t come north, come north despite all the risks. And if we’re going to find a permanent, fundamental answer to this, it goes to American economic and trade policies that permit these nations to have a chance to get on their own two feet and to get prosperity, so that they can have jobs for themselves and their people. And that’s why this enormous national debt, engineered by this administration, is harming these countries in fueling this immigration. These high interest rates — real rates that have doubled under this administration — have had the same effect on Mexico and so on, and the cost of repaying those debts is so enormous that it results in massive unemployment, hardship, and heartache. And that drives our friends to the south up into our region, and we need to end those deficits as well.

It has been 150 years since the beginning of the Civil War that started in April of 1861 at Ft Sumter.

Former slaves were photographed

These former slaves were photographed at Fish Hall, a Hilton Head, S.C., plantation owned by the family of Emma Pope, the wife of Confederate General Thomas Drayton. The plantation was taken over by Union forces following the Northern victory over Drayton’s forces in the Battle of Port Royal in November 1861. The workers in this photo were still planting, harvesting and ginning cotton but were now keeping the profits

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Excerpts from Mary Lee Orsini transcript

The following is a series of excerpts from a July 17 interview between Mary Lee Orsini and Sgt. Jim Dixon and Major Jackie Goodson of the Pulaski County sheriff’s office. The transcript was edited only for basic spelling.

Orsini: The only suspicion is when we pulled out of the driveway, there was his truck sitting in the driveway. And uh, you this is one of things when you go to trial and expect everybody to tell the truth and about half the witnesses got there told the story that wasn’t true and you’re wondering why people, you’re, you’re the bad guy why aren’t they telling the truth. But several times my husband’s partner Vernon had picked my husband up. My husband had a real big engine in that truck. And there was times it wouldn’t turn over and he had to have it started, now since we moved in that house in September he’d never been there. But several time we lived in Emerald Garden, Vernon would come by and get Ron until they could do something with the starter he had problems with that wouldn’t, he’d hit a dead spot, I don’t remember all the circumstances.
Goodson: So your daughter questioned that when y’all got ready to leave?
Orsini: She said you know, what’s Daddy’s truck doing there or something to that effect. And I said well Vernon probably came and got him. And so she being a 14 year old, and had a pretty innocent mind, pretty sheltered mind at that time didn’t have any suspicions.
. . .
Goodson: Okay now when did you do, use the screwdriver?
Orsini: Uh, when I left the upstairs I went back-downstairs, I guess my mind was racing, I don’t remember my mindset, I don’t think I had one that night except insanity. Uh you know I got the screwdriver, if I recall the screwdriver was just lying there, uh…
Goodson: When you put the stuff in the car?
Orsini: I saw the screwdriver, yes, the best I can remember I saw the screwdriver and I thought well I’m gonna go over here and act like I’m opening this door, and then at the door there was already marks on the door, well it took me more, well it wasn’t marks it was like a mark or two, and it took me more tries to do what I’d seen my husband do real easily a day or two before.
. . .
Dixon: I think what he is asking you is did you reveal this to anyone that you know? A close friend, relative?
Orsini: Oh no no,
Dixon: Co-worker?
Orsini: The only person um, no, no. Absolutely not. The only person, I told my mother right before she died. My mother was ill and my mother died in 1999 and I told her the truth cause I thought she deserved the truth. And my mother said Mary please don’t make things any worse for the family than what they already are. And so I told her then that I needed to take care of it. That it needed to be resolved. Uh and uh, when I got up here there were a lot of things that just weighed on me, constantly. And I talked to the chaplain about it and uh we had a tremendous chaplain and he said he would help me resolve it. That’s when Wackenhut still had us up here. And he went to the warden. Uh I believe twice, and…
. . .
Goodson: With your story and what evidence and all that. Uh, what, now probably what I want to hear now is why you decided after 21 years to um to tell the truth of the matter.
Orsini: Um, well I tried to since 1996. You know ’96 was first told my mother and uh she asked me again not to say anything and in ’99 I talked to her about it right before she died and she begged me not to do it. And my daughter is successful, she’s married, and she’s living away from Arka, away from Little Rock. And um uh, you know my family’s suffered a lot and their families suffered a lot. And my mother-in-law died last year without me resolving this with her, and I was crazy about my mother-in-law.
Goodson: Is that Ron’s mother?
Orsini: Uh, huh. She died a year ago January, or this January. Maybe it was last January; it hasn’t been very long that she died. And uh, you know you just have to make things right.
Goodson: It’s a burden to carry ain’t it?
Orsini: You have to make things right.
. . .
Goodson: Why-what made you decide to send one to Chris Piazza?
Orsini: You know why-you probably wouldn’t believe me if I told you. Can I turn the tape off a minute or two I really don’t want…
Goodson: I’d rather you-I’d rather you, I’d rather you be upfront on all it. Cause if we turn it off it will look we…
Orsini: I’m being upfront. It’s just that a lot of people might misinterpret what I’m gonna say. Anytime that I would pray the Lord just kept having heaviness on my heart about this. I was praying and you know Chris Piazza just came to my mind. And I wrestled with it a couple of days and wrote the letter out a couple of days, couple of times. You know I just became grateful for him, for um for pursuing it. Not letting me get by and diligently pursuing the initial case and not being afraid to let me get-to go after doing his job.
Goodson: He’s a well respected…
Orsini: Yeah and even though during the time that there was false evidence used at the trial and I, and I wrestled through the court because there was a lot of false evidence used at my trial to convict me. They even used a lot of lies. What you know God is just, and he’s in Proverbs it says, “The sense-the sentence is just in the hands of the king.” And that means when the judge gives you a sentence it’s just; regardless of what that sentence is. And so I knew that it looked like the time he was promoting a career and all that stuff and that’s how your mind can think. But he was really-he was representing the state of Arkansas justly. So I uh, I wrote him a letter and I let a friend of mine who was here, who-I’ve openly confessed this here in prison.
. . .